YOUR COMMENTS

I sold my home in FL (taxes $2,000 annually) and bought a home for the same price here (taxes $12,000 annually) when my Dad was dying. He lived off his savings and paid NH taxes on the interest, despite being far below the poverty line. I inherited his house (taxes $7,000 annually), but can't sell either in the endless lousy market. Found out after fixing up Dad's house (to try and rent it) that not a penny is deductible--the reward for 25 years of working 80-hour weeks. Doesn't stop NH from taking 8% off the top of every penny of rental--even though I LOSE a huge amount each year. And NH has one of the LOWEST tax burdens??? Is this Country TOTALLY INSANE???
- Kathleen Noble, Exeter

Of course red states can keep their state taxes lower, they are syphoning federal dollars (many at a clip of nearly 2 to 1), which is provided by blue states!
- DM, Hampton

Actually, Forbes ranks NH as the 41st state when considering the cost of business.

And just so you know, Forbes ranks every other New England state as having higher costs than NH.
- John II, Manchester

Several people have complained about some of the numbers and points I use. Number one is this state is dead last for business when you look at the "cost" of doing business here. We tax the heck out of companies "but" if you factor other things into the equation like them not having to pay a sales tax on the items they buy to operate here we are rated 9th. A recent report claimed we were beat out by Alaska for the lowest Tax burden and they pointed out that the average property tax in Manchester was only about $1300.00. That's what the tax was on my old house in Virginia that was valued at $100,000 more than my current property in Henniker that has a tax of $6,500. The trouble is the majority of companies look at the bottom line first , that's the bare cost to have a building , lights, heat , power , local taxes and business taxes , payroll taxes they have to pay to the state for the workers they have and that is what counts the most. Everyone can say "quality of life" and a lot of other places like Austin Texas and the Mid Atlantic will easily win out because there is more to do and more places to go. I saw a lot of companies move their warehouse operations from Virginia to Texas because Virginia started taxing companies on their inventory while Texas did not. However Virginia will give a company a full ten year property tax break on their buildings plus give them money for everyone they hire because the workers pay a 5% income tax which makes up for it. Texas does not have an income tax but they have multiple local jurisdiction taxes plus add on sales taxes on a district basis. The Carolinas recently had several large companies move there because they also gave them 10 years tax free on their properties as long as they hired local people.

This state does not have an income tax on the pay that an individual makes but it does tax individuals investment income and in fact it also taxes any lottery winnings over $600.00 no mater where you win at to the tune of 10%. The trouble is the majority of workers here don't have investments and don't win over $600.00 in a lottery so they think and believe the myth that we have no income tax.

A recent report showed the top 40 locations in the US that were just about recession proof and good for job prospects. The nearest to here was Boston and Rochester NY. The majority were down south or in Texas or Tennessee but virtually all of them had multiple colleges and universities plus good night life , property that had remained stable or even appreciated and most either have now or are in the process of putting in mass transit.
- Don Armstrong, Henniker

I gotta laugh at the posts here, Massachusetts is the income engine for NH. Without the opportunities there, largely created by Universities and education which rely on TAXES, NH would be a ghostown.

Wouldn't bother me if growth slowed, but I won't lie about it to assuage right wing fantasies.
- Redlon, Rochester

Jim of Manchvages The two States that are not have budget problems are North Dakota, and Montana. Haven't looked into why Montana is doing okay, but from what i've read about North Dakota is due in large part because of BND the bank of North Dokata The state avoids all those nasty usury charges by being it's own bank.
- Towgo, Solon, Maine

Quite simply, those places are embracing growth, which is why people are moving there. New Hampshire does not embrace growth. We fear growth and the overflow from our southern border that would bring. The "double-taxation" of people that live in NH but work in MA is what prevents more people from moving here, undermining our growth. Get rid of the property tax, implement an income tax, and watch the boom in southern NH. It'd be unprecedented.
As costs rise the only option is to cut spending or raise revenues. We can cut, but not endlessly. So some services are needed and will cost more, no matter what we do. It's called inflation. So unless you raise taxes to raise more revenue, you need to attract more people to grow the revenue base. That's our problem. In NH, we seem to irrationally hate our neighbors just across that imaginary line in the woods.
- mike, hampstead, nh

Mr. Armstrong:

With all due respect, it is incorrect to write that NH does not have an income tax. NH taxes several forms of income. Our state has one of the highest corporate income taxes in the region, and a dividends and interest tax. The only income NH does not tax is W-2 income. Labor pays no income tax while capital pays substaintual income taxes.
- Mike, Bedford

Top 3 states New Yorkers Migrated to:
1)Florida(Ah retirement) Tax Burden 47th
2)New Jersey(Out of the city) Tax Burden #1
3)Pennsylvania(more rural) Tax Burden #11
So the second most popular place to move from NY is the only state with a higher tax burden than NY.
Baby Boomers moving to warmer climates of Florida #1
Clearly NY is a high tax burden state and the exodus from there is not tax related mainly or NJ and PA would not be 2 and 3.
Obviously there are people moving for lower taxes but Jim in Manchester seems to have it closer to the truth with:

biggest factors are real estate costs, weather, followed by family connections, then politics (more like-minded conservative voters), then and better schools, last of all by lower taxes (jobs are equally availabe to competent skilled workers in both areas
- Kevin, Derry NH

- Don Armstrong, Henniker ". . . In New Hampshire we have no sales or income tax so we are heavily dependent on property tax. . . " I find your statement to be false because NH does have both types of taxes. NH has a rooms and meals tax (based on sales of food and rentals); it has business profits and a business enterprise tax, both of which are based on business incomes; part of the BET is a calculation on the amount of wages earned by workers (IE an income tax). NH also has a myriad of user fees, tolls, and charges for access to parks, etc. NH is anything but "tax free"; however, the most regressive tax is the local property tax paid by property owners and tenants alike. The bottom line: the NH Advantage is a MYTH and has been a myth for decades!
- Gary L. Kerr, Chichester

Mike - a lie? Don - the opposite of what I 'believe' is true?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

Gentlemen, I don't lie, and this is not about what I believe.
- DM, Hampton

PS to Bob of Hampstead--Sorry to remove one of your data points, but Ford's relative prosperity is not from being non-union; in fact, the UAW rank-and-file voted down an attempt by management and union leadership to rewrite work rules for parity with GM and Chrysler.

Separately, the nearby article about Harvey of western Mass. moving jobs to Londonderry, while not disproving the editorial's point, should reassure us that we are not yet as bad as Massachusetts.
- Spike, Brentwood NH

Towgo,
Which 2 states have no problems?? I'm putting my house on the market soon, I might move there.
- Jim, Manchester

Don Armstrong from Henniker...Walmart avoided the union trap, that's how they became the world's largest retailer. Lower prices for virtually the same goods as their competitors (who, you conveniently leave out also buy their products from China....been in Toys R Us lately?) Funny how the companies that don't need to be bailed out (see Ford), that don't bow to union thugs (see Walmart) seem to flourish, while companies that have the ball and chain of goverment and unions around their necks are the hardest hit in this economy. Find the link on MSNBC (of all places) that indicate which states are emerging from the recession quicker, and you'll see if they are decidedly "red" states.
- Bob, Hampstead

To the gentleman from Milton,if you go to the website cited by Steve B. you will see the following:Alaska (where the former governor's husband wanted to secede)gets back $1.83 for every $1.00 in federal income taxes California gets back $.80 New York $.82 and the state where I grew up and received a great education New Hampshire $.75.In the words of the great conservative spokesman, President Reagan " Facts are tricky things"
It has always amazed me that areas where the returns are greatest claim to be conservative and not reliant on the federal government.
MHS Central 1962
- Jack Sullivan, San Luis Obispo CA

As a former resident NH for 38 years, I left just after the old man left his pearch on the mountain. I watched town halls grab more and more power and demand more money to run those programs. I miss my State, but the property taxes and restrctions keep me from comming back. But one thing for sure which is only now that I don't have any property left there is NH really tax free for me when I come to hunt and visit.
- Towgo, Solo, Maine

The basic premise here is: Americans shop states for best quality of life like they shop stores for value. The States that don't provide it lose.

Which party is promoting quality of life in NH? The libertarians most of all, the Democrats least of all.
- Jim, Manchester

PS - I forgot Weather - second highest factor.
- Jim, Manchester

Sorry Mr. Cline but, this op-ed is SLIGHTLY skewed by wishful thinking on your part. From the people I know who have joined the exodus (from Mass to North Carolina) the biggest factors are real estate costs, followed by family connections, then politics (more like-minded conservative voters), then and better schools, last of all by lower taxes (jobs are equally availabe to competent skilled workers in both areas). In fact, I think lower wage rates and lower taxes down south probably cancel each other out. You see it about quality of life, not by any one cost.

People don't mind their taxes increasing, if thier wages increase enough to more than cover it. Thats where most die-hard Mass residents I know are at.
- Jim, Manchester

Sorry to ruin an argument with facts, but here is the rate of return on federal taxes by state in 2005. http://www.nemw.org/images/taxburd.pdf
- Steve B, Derry

Unless I'm wrong I'm pretty certain that Most of California has warm climate year round and yet people are leaving the state. So to say claim that people are just moving for warm weather is inaccurate. People move away from pain and the theft of their money can be quite painful after awhile.
- Emile M. Proulx, Manchester

"Taxes and regulations do not explain all of this shift, but they are a big factor"

Actually, Kotkin, the author of this study, makes no such claim. His own article was an examination of data and trends, and unlike the UL he did not jump to specific conclusions about the causes of those trends.

But hey, science/schmience. If you're a UL editorial writer, you can just make stuff up, and there are plenty of people who will tag along. However, most New Hampshire residents will see the data for what it is- more representative of temperature than taxes. I've been thinking about Arizona and Florida myself the last couple of weeks, haven't you?
- Dave, Sandwich

Many southern states utilize taxpayer’s money to lure businesses. So, you pays your taxes and the gummint gives them to Mercedes, Boeing, BMW and others to locate their plants there. Whilst you’re slaving away in the heat working for the man, the fat cats are getting rich and your quality of life is going down. When the company that was given incentives leaves or folds, you’re stuck holding the bag.

New Hampshire, to it’s credit, doesn’t seem to play that game. Airbus looked a locating at Pease a few years ago, but let’s face it, it was all for show, as our climate doesn’t lend itself to having green aircraft parked on the aprons waiting for paint, and our workforce commands higher wages. We were never really a contender.

Susie, you must have missed the items that were made in Vietnam. We sure bombed them into the stone-age, didn’t we? The next thing you’ll be buying that will have a Made in China label on it will be a ride in an airliner. Having learned by assembling aircraft for Airbus and others, the Chinese are well on their way to producing an indigenous airliner which will eventually compete worldwide against Boeing and Airbus. It will, by virtue of being the ‘better value’, eat away at the big two’s positions at the head of the class. Last month, Sikorsky delivered the first UH-60m aircraft to the US Army with a cabin made in Poland by PZL. Shouldn’t that be made in the US? Where’s the outrage? Clothing is one thing, defense articles are another.
- Texter, Newfields

James R. A quick look at a state by state "tax burden" list shows that with the exception of Georgia, the southern states have the very low tax burdens, comparatively speaking. I suppose it's easy for you to ignore this information since it doesn't jibe (not jive) with your ideology.

Here's the link James, read it and weep.

http://www.retirementliving.com/tax_burden_2008.pdf
- Ron, Manchester

Wait, don't most of the southern states have sales tax AND income tax? Can their overall tax burden really be that much less?

I have two friends who just moved to Texas. They are making twice what they were making here and paid half the price for a house double the size. There is more nightlife, better shopping and better weather. Thats why people are moving, not becasue politics and taxes.

New Hampshire is run by a bunch of crabby old people who don't want to spend any money on anything and don't want to see any change. I already have one foot out the door....
- Michelle, Manchester

Don (Henniker) says:

"This article is another example of how to get numbers to justify what ever you want to get a result to support your ideas."

Yes Don, numbers can justify whatever you want... especially when you make those numbers up in your head.

You state that Forbes has us as the worst state for business yet in 09 it ranks New Hampshire as the 19th best state to do business in.

NH was 20th best in 08.

NH was 14th best in 07.

If you are misimformed then someone is lying to you. Either way, you're lying to us and worse - yourself.
- John II, Manchester

People move south for better weather and cheaper real estate. But I guess that doesn't jive with the UL's ideology....

The salaries, wages, work conditions, and job security in these southern states are also lower.
- James R., Hampstead, NH

It seem to me that even though property taxes make up a majority of the tax revenue, that as long as you control spending there should be no problems. So why all the problems? Can anyone name the two States that are not having problems, and why? I'll give a hint, they're not southern States.
- Towgo, Solon, Maine

PS to Susie--The reason all the dresses are Chinese is that they are the better value. If your alternative were dresses made in a US union shop, you might choose to save money, and you surely wouldn't want Washington taking that freedom away from you for the sake of national statistics (as in Obama-care).

God bless Texas--But I believe you were fingerprinted to get a new driver's license; we were not, and if we keep resisting Judd Gregg, the information on our licenses won't even be sent to Canada and Mexico.
- Spike, Brentwood NH

I am sure that retiring people heading to warmer climates have nothing to do with the migration. Nothing at all.
- Steve B, Derry

This article is another example of how to get numbers to justify what ever you want to get a result to support your ideas. In New Hampshire we have no sales or income tax so we are heavily dependent on property tax. We also have a regressive business tax. The end result is by "Forbes" New Hampshire is the very bottom of the barrel for a choice place to place a business. We are number 50 as a state to do business and it appears Forbes does not believe nor do businesses believe in the myth of the New Hampshire advantage. Look in the papers across the state and try to find an article on any new developments that are not either a new shopping center , CVS or a housing development.

Now the state of Virginia has an income tax , sales , tax , personal property tax and yet because the bills are "spread" across the board "Once Again" for the 4th year in a row Forbes has selected Virginia as the best state in the entire US for a business to locate in.

You get what you pay for and in this state no one wants to pay for anything so the end result is it all trickles back to the homeowner so "Why should I invest any money , my property tax, in any business that is not actually located in my town to lower my property tax". People move to the Southern states because the majority of us use oil heat or delivered propane heat so the heating costs in winter are through the roof. I often hear people saying they are moving south to get away from the snow and cold but they don't realize that you may be getting a $400 a month air conditioning bill for 9 months of the year but at least you don't have to shovel hot air.

Businesses move to an area were it costs them the lowest amount in property , inventory , utility and set up costs. All other costs such as a workers income tax is not part of what effects "the companies" bottom line. If a state is a "right to work" state like Virginia and Texas "That means they can fire you for any reason or in fact no reason at all" then a company will move there because there is no unions or law suits to put up with. Guess what if your company moves then you either get a new job or move. Many of the locations that are now hiring and expanding are also near college and universities where they get a good pool of young people that are not "set" in their ways so they help the company.

By the way for the person from Texas that complained about it being Obamas fault that everything is made in China then I gather you know little about Wal-mart because they became the biggest retailer in the world because they bought the cheap stuff from China a long time ago. Warren Buffet became a billionaire by buying out all the shoe and clothing manufactures in New England and moving all the operations to South America while still charging the same price at the stores. That happened back in the 1980's and guess what if you invest in a companies stock and you get a fat dividend check you could care less how they manage to do it.
- Don Armstrong, Henniker

DM, the opposite of what you believe is the truth. Red states tend to be donor states, donor in that little of what the state's residents contribute to the federal government ever returns. New Hampshire is and has always been a donor state. States like New York and California despite being considered wealthy are receiver states. Sure you can find exceptions but by and large blue states have always tended to be receiver states while red states have tended to be donor states. Although, despite NH turning blue in the last two election it hasn't changed our status as a donor state. New Hampshire was soundly snubbed in the so called "Stimulus" not surprising when you consider New Hampshires Congressional representatives stabbed us in the back by voting against distributing the stimulus by population reducing New Hampshire's take in the "Stimulus" by more than three billion dollars!
- Don Diamant, Milton, NH

DM in Hampton, that is an all-out lie. The bluest states like NJ and IL are completely bankrupt.

Why do liberals lie without any guilt? How do they do that?

And even Andrew Mellon said that if you tax something more, you get less of it. Did liberals never crack any economics book other than Marx?
- Mike R., Bedford

The editorial is spot on.

And, for those who would argue that we need an income tax to solve NH's fiscal problems, I would point to states like California, NJ, NY, Illinois, Michigan, Arizona, and most of the others with an income tax. They are in MUCH worse shape than NH, fiscally.

The property tax is painful, but it lets us know what the true cost of running government is, as opposed to all of these "tax the other guy" schemes that some "progressive" politicians like to argue for, usually using the "fairness" angle. The property tax keeps the pressure on state and local politicians to keep expenditures in check.

If we have a sales or income tax, spending will skyrocket, and our NH advantage will be permanently gone.
- Ditmar Kopf, Hollis

Have you ever considered how much you pay in taxes. First your paycheck is taxed before you even get it. Then gas tax, property tax, food tax, phone tax, etc. etc. We need another tea party.....we are being taxed to death. Lucky if we get half our paycheck after all the taxes.
- tracy, manchester

In the past decade, the "Red" states received more federal dollars than they paid, and the "Blue" states paid more into the system than they received back from the federal government in the form of benefits. I guess that's why they call them "red" states.
- DM, Hampton

I went shopping yesterday to buy clothes for work and discovered that everything I bought was "Made in China." Obama does not want to see a job recovery. What he wants is for us to lose even more jobs overseas. This way, Americans will succumb to socialism out of need. Ditto for healthcare. He's obsessed with it is because he recognizes that ObamaCare is an alternate route to socialism--it's a back-up, should Plan A fail. He also knows that, if the bill passes, the Democratic Socialist Party will then own a large segment of the business sector--one that is substantial enough for his party to remain in power, indefinitely.

But yesterday's elections were most revealing. They made crystal clear that the #1 concern for Americans is jobs, with taxes being #2. But if Obama had sincerely wanted to create real jobs and repair the economy, he would have initiated an across-the-board tax-cut on individuals and businesses. Likewise, he would not be imposing more taxes on us via Cap-and-Trade. Nor would he be bailing out automakers (more taxes) in what amounts to a flagrant show of support for the union leeches that brought them down in the first place. Obama and his henchmen are out to destroy America. 2013 cannot get here soon enough. My only "Hope" is that the damage done by these conniving liberal fascists is not irreversible. Godspeed, America!

"Texas not Taxes"-- the right to work state.
- Susie, Horseshoe Bay, TX (NH native)

It is not simply a tax issue. It’s also an issue of freedoms and the type of leadership we get here in the northeast. I moved to New Hampshire to simply escape from Communist Massachusetts and the one party system they have in place. Now I only plan on staying in the Northeast for as long as the New Hampshire I loved growing up still exists. Especially since progressive seems to mean self destruction.

Has anyone considered that maybe Mass drove the people out on purpose knowing they would move here and change the political landscape of the state? Why change hearts and minds when you can create a mass exodus and conquer.
- Deb, Derry

Living under the stifling rule of limousine liberals and their peasant dependent classes becomes to much for many people to support.
- Chris, Merrimack

well republicans won in virginia and new jersey i think most people are getting fed up with these liberal democrat,s i for one am getting tired of people abusing the welfare program when they are more than capable of working the liberals like to spend your hard earn money and give it to someone who is to lazy to go to work, i call it a reward for bad behavior , i mean you liberals like robert from deerfield go move to massachuesetts instead of messing up our state. ihope what happened in virginia and new jersey is going to happen in 2010 as well. i think people are finally waking up and realizing mr obama has no clue as to what he is doing, and it,s time to vote the followers like shea-porter and hodes out as well..wake up n.h...
- kevin dumont, nashua

The liberals that move here to get away from taxes end up trying to make it like where they came from. Look at Vermont, it has been ruined by New Yorkers. We in New Hampshire are quickly looking like our Southern neighbors, Mass. Living in NH used to be self reliant on oneself and not the government. More and more HHS has given money away to the so called needy. The federal government encourages that activity w/their liberal entitlement programs. We need to stop the giveaway of our tax dollars to the lazy unwilling to work people and stop this generational welfare program. We just got to get back to hard work and commons sense.
- Michael King, Epping

Joel Kotkin often posts columns on

http://www.newgeography.com which is a great website.

The website discusses well many different topics involved with economic development and other things.

I think New Hampshire's leaders and voters would benefit from checking out the website.
- Ken Stremsky, Manchester, NH

The people are welcome. Except they should leave their stupid Democrat ideas from where they come from. More of this, hey lets do that, here's a good idea, or the gimme gimme gimme approach to life means more taxes.
- Bob, Salem

After 5 years of complete democratic control of NH there is no doubt that this "experiment" has been an utter failure for our state. A real conservative republican state rep was elected in Concord of all places yesterday (not named Liz Hagger) so NH is starting to regain its senses.

You can't stop people from moving here from their blue-state dumps, but what you can do is start running the NH republican party like it used to be run with fiscal restraint, and practical Yankee soulutions to our problems.

The good news is that the state & national democratic party has been, and will continue to self-destruct. Now it's up to conservatives to pick up the ball & run with it.
- Jay Collins, Laconia

If you are right, this would seem to refute the Rochester "economist" who was trotted out during the spending-cap debate to claim that unlimited government spending induces prosperity by attracting the right kind of people, people who want government to seize and spend to make a statement about them.

Clearly, the "multiplier effect," where $1 of taxation produces more than $1 of prosperity, simply fails to count what we would have done with the earnings that were seized from us.
- Spike, Brentwood NH